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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
New to me 2018 base. pretty significant rise in electricity costs after owning the car for a week. Is anyone on TOU-Prime with SCE. If you are, can you give some incite as to your savings. Right now I'm on the basic residential tiered system. This has two separate costs per kilowatt..one for generation and one for delivery. The TOU says $.19/$.48/$.19. Does that price per kilowatt include generation and delivery or is the delivery separate. I'm just trying to project how much it is going to cost to charge up the 14KW battery every night.
 

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I am no longer in SCE's territory but I think I can give you a pointer. Contact SCE and ask about the rate for charging electric cars at night (10PM-6AM?). The rate is a bit lower. You may also need a separate meter for it. Of course if you need to charge during the day you are going to get hosed to the tune of 48 cents per kwh, or about $7 per full charge. The electricity and gasoline rates used by Honda to figure eMPG are 15,000 miles annually at 13 cents per kwh and $2.70 per gallon (right off my window sticker) with the average mpg per all cars at 27. You will have to adjust your numbers to figure your usage. If you go with the electric charging option you just program the charging time to coincide with the special rate time period. I just did a quick calculation using your numbers (19 cents per kwh) and a $5 per gallon price. To go 42 miles on gas is one gallon ($5) and to go 42 miles on electricity is $2.60. Of course if you are able to get a higher distance per charge the rate per 42 miles will be less.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Tommyboy..thanks for your input and great info. I'm also trying to see if the $.19 is the only charge per kilowatt or is there a delivery charge per Kw like I have now with the tiered program I'm on now.
 

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With your PHEV being able to charge very quickly on L2, your TOU should be either a few hours in the morning or afternoon charging as mine is.

I am not really saving that much on the Clarity as it really does not use that much energy each day.

OTOH if you have pure EV like a Tesla, that can make huge difference.

I am ordering the Ford Lightning EV F150 truck and going to leverage the SCE TOU rates.

My PHEV will go back to overnight charging using L1 since the battery charges in about 8 hours.
 

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I'm also in So. CA, with SCE. I've continued to opt out of TOU for many years (20+) of EV driving, because under our circumstances*, Residential Tiered remains cheapest, and we can stay grandfathered in to the old tariffs. When comparing rates, be sure to include the fixed, daily "fees" that are different for each. They can conveniently eat up any savings that any particular rate appears to provide. I'm convinced that power utilities purposefully muck with the rate details to make them basically impossible to accurately compare. IMO, SCE's "rate comparison tools" are essentially worthless. I recommend making your own, real-world-number based spreadsheet.

* Retired, 5kW of solar PV, 27kWh of Powerwalls and a highly efficient super-insulated home (without AC) with new (and also efficient) appliances. Our other car is a '21 Bolt.
 

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I'm also in So. CA, with SCE. I've continued to opt out of TOU for many years (20+) of EV driving, because under our circumstances*, Residential Tiered remains cheapest, and we can stay grandfathered in to the old tariffs. When comparing rates, be sure to include the fixed, daily "fees" that are different for each. They can conveniently eat up any savings that any particular rate appears to provide. I'm convinced that power utilities purposefully muck with the rate details to make them basically impossible to accurately compare. IMO, SCE's "rate comparison tools" are essentially worthless. I recommend making your own, real-world-number based spreadsheet.

* Retired, 5kW of solar PV, 27kWh of Powerwalls and a highly efficient super-insulated home (without AC) with new (and also efficient) appliances. Our other car is a '21 Bolt.
Before we moved to Southern Utah last June our home had a 5kW solar PV system. It was installed in 2007 and we never had a bill from SCE until they added the $10.00 per month grid fee. I was charging my Prius Prime, which only has a 8.8 kWh battery (only 6.8 could be charged). I opted out of TOU every year as well. We now have an 8.6 kW system on our new home. Funky credit program with our utility guarantees that we pay for electricity used when the system is not producing electricity or we need more than the system can generate at any given moment. Plus overproduction is not credited as kilowatts, but at 4 cents per. Monthly relevant periods don't help us, either. I knew this going in, but that doesn't mean I like it much.
 

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Before we moved to Southern Utah last June our home had a 5kW solar PV system. It was installed in 2007 and we never had a bill from SCE until they added the $10.00 per month grid fee. I was charging my Prius Prime, which only has a 8.8 kWh battery (only 6.8 could be charged). I opted out of TOU every year as well. We now have an 8.6 kW system on our new home. Funky credit program with our utility guarantees that we pay for electricity used when the system is not producing electricity or we need more than the system can generate at any given moment. Plus overproduction is not credited as kilowatts, but at 4 cents per. Monthly relevant periods don't help us, either. I knew this going in, but that doesn't mean I like it much.
Oh, man. I feel your pain.

Much as I complain about SCE tariffs, having Net Energy Metering is the bomb, except for the annual true-up wholesale rate payout. They pay me wholesale, and my neighbors scarf it up at retail.
 

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We are waiting for inspection on our Tesla Powerwall battery system now. Some users have suggested programming the batteries to kick in during the 4-9 TOU high rate hours. This seems sensible to me. Is that how you are using yours?
 

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Oh, man. I feel your pain.

Much as I complain about SCE tariffs, having Net Energy Metering is the bomb, except for the annual true-up wholesale rate payout. They pay me wholesale, and my neighbors scarf it up at retail.
EV nerd...I posted a question for you on your Tesla Powerwall, but since I did not quote your post you may not be alerted to it. Basically, I am wondering if you are using your backup power during Edison's prime rate TOU hours?
 

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EV nerd...I posted a question for you on your Tesla Powerwall, but since I did not quote your post you may not be alerted to it. Basically, I am wondering if you are using your backup power during Edison's prime rate TOU hours?
Yes. Even though I'm still grandfathered into Residential Tiered (because in my circumstances it still offers me the best rates), I've set things up as if I'm on TOU to be kinder to the grid. I've told the Powerwall (PW) firmware that my On-Peak time is 4-9PM, and I've also joined their beta Virtual Power Plant option. What this does is insure that I use zero grid power during 4-9PM, and in fact can export PW power from 4-9PM, along with any excess PV power produced during that time that doesn't violate my emergency reserve. I've also set up my EVs ('21 Chevy Bolt and '21 Honda Clarity PHEV) to only charge outside of On-Peak times. If you have a Tesla vehicle, the PW will communicate directly with the car, and they'll figure it out themselves.

Because I'm in earthquake country (So. CA), I've set my reserve as high as I can (75% now, in my case), while practically insuring that I don't pull from the grid during On-Peak times. It took quite a lot of trial and error to get it where I wanted, and I still change it seasonally. Depending on weather and average production, I'll sometimes set it as low as 60% in the spring, summer and fall, because I can confidently count on being able to refill the PWs daily, even during an extended grid outage. Right now, during my lowest production time, my reserve is the highest of the year, while still allowing for no grid use during On-Peak. If we lost the grid in Winter, we'd need to adjust our daily energy use around the house, in order to keep the fridges running indefinitely. In the summer...not so much.

We're retired and drive EVs, so there's a lot of variables that might not apply to other households.

As always, YMMV.

Note: We've got 5kW of PV and two PWs, in coastal So. CA. ~15-20kWh of daily production in winter (except in rainy weather), and ~30kWh the rest of the year. 8.4MWh total, per year.
 

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Yes. Even though I'm still grandfathered into Residential Tiered (because in my circumstances it still offers me the best rates), I've set things up as if I'm on TOU to be kinder to the grid. I've told the Powerwall (PW) firmware that my On-Peak time is 4-9PM, and I've also joined their beta Virtual Power Plant option. What this does is insure that I use zero grid power during 4-9PM, and in fact can export PW power from 4-9PM, along with any excess PV power produced during that time that doesn't violate my emergency reserve. I've also set up my EVs ('21 Chevy Bolt and '21 Honda Clarity PHEV) to only charge outside of On-Peak times. If you have a Tesla vehicle, the PW will communicate directly with the car, and they'll figure it out themselves.

Because I'm in earthquake country (So. CA), I've set my reserve as high as I can (75% now, in my case), while practically insuring that I don't pull from the grid during On-Peak times. It took quite a lot of trial and error to get it where I wanted, and I still change it seasonally. Depending on weather and average production, I'll sometimes set it as low as 60% in the spring, summer and fall, because I can confidently count on being able to refill the PWs daily, even during an extended grid outage. Right now, during my lowest production time, my reserve is the highest of the year, while still allowing for no grid use during On-Peak. If we lost the grid in Winter, we'd need to adjust our daily energy use around the house, in order to keep the fridges running indefinitely. In the summer...not so much.

We're retired and drive EVs, so there's a lot of variables that might not apply to other households.

As always, YMMV.

Note: We've got 5kW of PV and two PWs, in coastal So. CA. ~15-20kWh of daily production in winter (except in rainy weather), and ~30kWh the rest of the year. 8.4MWh total, per year.
I am reviving an older thread. @EVNerd, so you are on a grandfathered NEM 1.0 rate plan with flat tiered rate tariffs with SCE and you have installed Powerwalls to serve as an emergency power source in case of grid outage. I get that. What intrigues me is that you are using your PW to send stored energy to the grid during OP times despite your being on a tiered rate. Given the inefficiencies associated with charging and discharging the battery, you would be losing money on the export to the grid. Right? Also, by engaging in this charge discharge cycle every day (albeit shallow charge and discharges), you are shortening the life of your PW. I, like you am on a grandfathered NEM 1.0 program with a tiered rate tariff. I looked into getting a PW and concluded that while it would be a good emergency power source, it would not make financial sense from an energy arbitrage perspective since those of us in NEM 1.0 can already treat the grid as an infinitely large, 100% efficient, free battery. I am trying to understand your reasoning to see if I missed something.
 

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I am reviving an older thread. @EVNerd, so you are on a grandfathered NEM 1.0 rate plan with flat tiered rate tariffs with SCE and you have installed Powerwalls to serve as an emergency power source in case of grid outage. I get that. What intrigues me is that you are using your PW to send stored energy to the grid during OP times despite your being on a tiered rate. Given the inefficiencies associated with charging and discharging the battery, you would be losing money on the export to the grid. Right? Also, by engaging in this charge discharge cycle every day (albeit shallow charge and discharges), you are shortening the life of your PW. I, like you am on a grandfathered NEM 1.0 program with a tiered rate tariff. I looked into getting a PW and concluded that while it would be a good emergency power source, it would not make financial sense from an energy arbitrage perspective since those of us in NEM 1.0 can already treat the grid as an infinitely large, 100% efficient, free battery. I am trying to understand your reasoning to see if I missed something.
The PW warranty is structured such that if you are exclusively charging it with solar PV, you can cycle the PWs every day, without effecting the warranty at all. Charging from the grid will significantly reduce the warranty coverage.

Something I did not mention back in December is that I received a grant from the state of CA and my local utility (SCE) for my Powerwalls. It's called the Self-Generation Incentive Program (SGIF), and paid down my PWs by a third, or about $6k at the time. A condition of the grant is that I will use stored power from my PWs during the local rate area's on-peak period for a minimum number of hours each year. On-peak around here is from 4-9PM. I've got my house using stored energy from 2PM to 10PM during Spring through Fall, to help out the grid. During Winter, I drop it back to 4-9PM, because of reduced production.

Like I said earlier, my use-case is just that...solely mine. It's predicated on the patterns in which my household uses energy, and remaining on Residential Tiered cost the least for us.

Unfortunately, SCE is going to shortly force me to move to a TOU plan, which will cost me hundreds of dollars more per year, for our usage pattern.
 

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APS in Phoenix is now offering a similar deal to their customers, but many will have to expand their systems. In theory this will reduce the curtailing issue many utilities have with being forced to buy solar generated electricity in the early hours when they don't need it. That power will be stored in the powerwalls and can be accessed when needed.
 

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APS is Phoenix is now offering a similar deal to their customers, but many will have to expand their systems. In theory this will reduce the curtailing issue many utilities have with being forced to buy solar generated electricity in the early hours when they don't need it. That power will be stored in the powerwalls and can be accessed when needed.
Yup. One of the optional settings on Powerwalls is to join a "Virtual Powerplant". By selecting it, the local PWs join a pool of other PWs that can export energy to the grid if a power emergency is declared. That's a lot of stored kWh, in So. CA.

I joined the pool.
 

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When I sold solar in late 2008-2010, most people wanted to over-sized their systems. Of course you aren't allowed (unless including batteries (back then they were banks of deep-cycle marine lead-acid). I would always tell them to think of their solar as silent partnership with the utility (in partnership with, not competition against).
 

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The PW warranty is structured such that if you are exclusively charging it with solar PV, you can cycle the PWs every day, without effecting the warranty at all. Charging from the grid will significantly reduce the warranty coverage.

Something I did not mention back in December is that I received a grant from the state of CA and my local utility (SCE) for my Powerwalls. It's called the Self-Generation Incentive Program (SGIF), and paid down my PWs by a third, or about $6k at the time. A condition of the grant is that I will use stored power from my PWs during the local rate area's on-peak period for a minimum number of hours each year. On-peak around here is from 4-9PM. I've got my house using stored energy from 2PM to 10PM during Spring through Fall, to help out the grid. During Winter, I drop it back to 4-9PM, because of reduced production.

Like I said earlier, my use-case is just that...solely mine. It's predicated on the patterns in which my household uses energy, and remaining on Residential Tiered cost the least for us.

Unfortunately, SCE is going to shortly force me to move to a TOU plan, which will cost me hundreds of dollars more per year, for our usage pattern.
Thank you @EVNerd, that clears up my doubt. I couldn't take advantage of SGIP. The proposed decision laid out by CPUC will reduce grandfathering for all NEM 1.0 customers to 15 years from the previously contracted 20 years. Fortunately for me, my PV system was installed in 2016, and so I would still (even if the grandfathering period is reduced) have about 9 more years on the tiered plan.
 
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