[fufu]

Hi everyone,
I currently own a 2012 Toyota Prius Plug-in Advanced.
It was recently in an accident and am looking to replace the car.

Any suggestions on finding 2018 Clarity Touring models?
I pinged BethInMyrtleBeach about her 2018 Clarity, but in case she sold it I'm looking for other leads.

Any recalls or other trouble spots I should inquire about when discussing any that I find?

I just got here but I seems like this is a very friendly place for Clarity owners to get together!

Thanks in advance for any answers to my questions above.

Scott

 

[obermd]

First question - where are you located? If you're outside California I'd check with your local Honda dealerships to see if they will support the car.

 

[2002]

I would say the most important thing when buying a used Clarity is to have the battery capacity checked which can be done by any Honda dealer, and make this a condition of the sale. This is sometimes referred to as a capacity test but that's something of a misnomer because it's not as if they actually do a charge test, it's just a value stored in the vehicle's computer and the dealer just uses their diagnostic computer to read the value. Since most dealers have little experience with Clarity they often think you want the 12V battery tested, and even if you explain that you want the HV battery checked they don't always know how to do it, so you just tell them on their diagnostic computer go to the Electric Powertrain Data List and look at the Battery Pack Capacity. A new battery will be around 55 Ah, anything below that indicates that the battery has lost capacity, for example a value of 50 means that the battery has lost 10% of its original range. For a two year old Clarity that is not all that uncommon based on a lot of variables, but if the capacity is already diminished then that should be factored into the selling price.

The dealer may charge for doing this, which really the seller should be paying for but if they refuse and you otherwise like the car and plan to buy it then it's worth paying for the test yourself, just make sure you have it tested prior to purchase. If you don't have this checked, the odds are that it won't be a big problem, but if after purchase you realize that the battery has lost capacity there is nothing that Honda will do about it, it's not a warranty issue unless it drops below 36.6 Ah (33% loss) which so far no one has experienced.

 

[2002]

First question - where are you located? If you're outside California I'd check with your local Honda dealerships to see if they will support the car.

Any Honda dealer will support the Clarity. And even if it's the first one they have seen, Clarity has the same i-MMD hybrid system as the Accord and CR-V hybrids. Worst case if the technician can't figure something out using the troubleshooting instructions supplied by Honda, they will call Honda technical support, which is a normal situation whenever any new vehicle shows up in the service department, hybrid or not.

Now of course different dealers will have different levels of general proficiency (and customer service) but that will not be related to whether or not they are in California or whether they have experience with Clarity.

 

[fufu]

Thanks obermd. I am in Massachusetts. There are several new and used (2018) Claritys for sale around the state.

 

[fufu]

Thanks 2002,
I will add the traction pack capacity to my list of questions during inspection by the inspecting dealer.

I always take my prospective used car purchase to a dealer for that car's maker (not the one selling me the car of course 😁) for inspection for evidence of collisions, mechanical wear, and any other problems.
I'll be sure to ask "Please provide a printout of the diagnostic computer results including the Electric Powertrain Data List" and pay particular attention to the reported Battery Pack Capacity.
Do you know if the report takes into account ambient temperature? I assume it does, given it's a parameter in good battery management systems.

 

[2002]

The entire report is long and filled with data that you really can't do anything with, the only number you need is from the line for battery pack capacity. If they give you more than that you will probably find it interesting (even if not useful) I'm just letting you know you aren't missing anything if they just give you the page with the battery pack capacity.

Correction, I just remembered that someone said there is a value for longest time that the HV battery went without charging. If true this would be very useful as we know that some Clarities spent 6 months to a year sitting on dealer lots, and if the dealer was careless about keeping it charged then the HV battery may have run down to lower than it should, which would not be good. Unfortunately the value itself wouldn't tell the whole story, let's say it reports that 4 months was the longest period without charging. Well if the HV battery was full at the beginning of that period it should be fine. But if it was at 0 EV miles (10%) for example then after four months it could have discharged below what would be safe for the battery. The lowest it will go in operational mode is 1% and that is rare. If it discharged below that it likely is not good for the battery. But again no way to know what the battery level was during the longest period without charging. But at least if it says it never went more than say a month without charging then either A. it was not on the lot very long or B. the dealer kept it charged. To be clear I don't know for a fact that this information is available in diagnostics, just that someone said it is. Supposedly it also will tell you the same thing about the 12V battery, although that's not as big a concern, worst case they neglected the 12V and shortened its life, but the Clarity uses a standard 12V battery so low cost DIY replacement is possible, and some people have even gotten the dealer to replace it under warranty.

We really don't know how the HV battery capacity value is calculated, my theory is that it updates the value whenever you have charged to 100% SOC followed by a full discharge to whatever the voltage is that corresponds to 0 EV miles (10% SOC), with no charging in between (other than regen which it can account for). It then would calculate the Ah capacity based on how many kWh were discharged. That's my guess anyway. You would think it takes temperature into consideration.

Since it's a royal hassle to obtain the capacity most people have only gotten it once (if at all) and so we don't know if the number changes every time you charge, or maybe it averages the last few charges, or maybe it only updates if say the last three charges have been lower than the previously stored value.

 

[fufu]

Hey everyone,
We've got a well negotiated deal on the table for this car, awaiting the 1-hour deep inspection by Kelly Honda (local to the Chevy dealer selling the car) tomorrow morning before we buy the car.

https://www.pridemotorgroup.com/inv...ybrid-touring-fwd-4d-sedan-jhmzc5f31jc003341/
Carfax: https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?partner=DEY_0&vin=JHMZC5F31JC003341

If anyone spots any red flags about this vehicle, please let me know!

I'll give an update with how the request for Battery Pack Capacity and time the traction pack went without charging" from the diagnostic computer output.
Is that interval without charging only including instances when the battery reached 100% SOC? I hope the battery is sized to allow charging to 80% of design so it will last longer.
Going to 100% SOC on Li-Ion cells wears them out faster, sweet spot appears to be 80% of rated capacity as I understand it.

 

[obermd]

I didn't see anything out of the ordinary in either. I would ask if the aftermarket service contract is still valid - you may have to ask the vendor directly - as it may save you money down the road. At that mileage I'd also ask for the number of miles on the engine. If they can't get that then ask for the overall MPG - higher means fewer ICE miles. There's a lot of miles on that car and it would be useful to know if they're electric or gas as this will give you some idea of how the car was driven. What you're looking for is the wear and tear on the injectors and spark plugs.

Also, this car should still have Garmin updates available. I believe the free five years transfers to a new owner.

 

[2002]

I hope the battery is sized to allow charging to 80% of design so it will last longer.
Going to 100% SOC on Li-Ion cells wears them out faster, sweet spot appears to be 80% of rated capacity as I understand it.

The battery is 17 kWh but people who have measured how much electricity is required to charge from empty to full say it's around 14.5 kWh. With charging losses the battery is probably only being charged just under 14 kWh.

Now on the surface that might sound like it's only using 80% of capacity (14/17=0.82, HOWEVER, 0 EV miles on the Clarity is 10% SOC, when it drops to that level the gas engine runs as needed to keep SOC between about 7-12%. But if you do things like sit in the car in the parking lot with the heater or AC running, or sit in stop and go traffic, SOC can get down as low as 1% before the engine comes on, then it charges it to about 3% then shuts off until it drops to around 1% again. So this means the actual usable part of the battery is between 1% and 100%. If the people who did the measuring were charging from 0 EV miles (10%-100%) that means the 14.5 kWh of charging that they measured represents only 90% of the actual useable charge. If they had drained the battery down to 1% before starting their charge test then they would have probably recorded about 16 kWh of charging (14.5 / 0.9 = 16.1). Charge losses might bring that down to say 15.5 kWh, which would be 91% of the 17 kWh. Not terrible but that's kind of getting up there.

For that reason I normally only charge my Clarity to 85% SOC which I figure is pretty close to 80% of the 17 kWh, and most days that amount of charge is more than I need. It requires using scheduled charging which for me I am already doing because I am on a Time of Use rate plan. Once you know from experience how many SOC % you get per hour of charging it's pretty easy to schedule a charge session that will get you pretty close to the SOC % that you want. Now on days that I know that I will be using the full EV range then I charge to 100%, but in those cases I schedule it to reach 100% shortly before my estimated departure, so that the battery will only be sitting briefly at 100%, which I have read is better for the battery than sitting around for hours at 100%. But we really have no proof of this, and many people get home and immediately start charging to full, which means their car sits at home for hours at 100%. And that may be perfectly fine, and I realize that's the easiest way to charge. But for me since it's just as easy to keep it well below 100% unless I need it. Now to throw a wrench in this the Honda manual says to always charge to 100%. One person theorized that maybe it only does cell balancing when you charge to 100%, but that's just a theory. But I charge to 100% at least once a week so I think I'm covered either way.

 

[DucRider]

The battery is 17 kWh but people who have measured how much electricity is required to charge from empty to full say it's around 14.5 kWh. With charging losses the battery is probably only being charged just under 14 kWh.

Now on the surface that might sound like it's only using 80% of capacity (14/17=0.82, HOWEVER, 0 EV miles on the Clarity is 10% SOC, when it drops to that level the gas engine runs as needed to keep SOC between about 7-12%. But if you do things like sit in the car in the parking lot with the heater or AC running, or sit in stop and go traffic, SOC can get down as low as 1% before the engine comes on, then it charges it to about 3% then shuts off until it drops to around 1% again. So this means the actual usable part of the battery is between 1% and 100%. If the people who did the measuring were charging from 0 EV miles (10%-100%) that means the 14.5 kWh of charging that they measured represents only 90% of the actual useable charge. If they had drained the battery down to 1% before starting their charge test then they would have probably recorded about 16 kWh of charging (14.5 / 0.9 = 16.1). Charge losses might bring that down to say 15.5 kWh, which would be 91% of the 17 kWh. Not terrible but that's kind of getting up there.

For that reason I normally only charge my Clarity to 85% SOC which I figure is pretty close to 80% of the 17 kWh, and most days that amount of charge is more than I need. It requires using scheduled charging which for me I am already doing because I am on a Time of Use rate plan. Once you know from experience how many SOC % you get per hour of charging it's pretty easy to schedule a charge session that will get you pretty close to the SOC % that you want. Now on days that I know that I will be using the full EV range then I charge to 100%, but in those cases I schedule it to reach 100% shortly before my estimated departure, so that the battery will only be sitting briefly at 100%, which I have read is better for the battery than sitting around for hours at 100%. But we really have no proof of this, and many people get home and immediately start charging to full, which means their car sits at home for hours at 100%. And that may be perfectly fine, and I realize that's the easiest way to charge. But for me since it's just as easy to keep it well below 100% unless I need it. Now to throw a wrench in this the Honda manual says to always charge to 100%. One person theorized that maybe it only does cell balancing when you charge to 100%, but that's just a theory. But I charge to 100% at least once a week so I think I'm covered either way.

A whole lot of fuss for very little (if any) benefit.
Honda does a good job of battery management, and with thermal conditioned batteries, there is no evidence that anything the user does in regards to daily charging influences battery longevity. The one exception to this is Tesla since they let you truly charge to 100% (4.2V per cell) without any significant top buffer.
We had a Honda Fit EV for nearly 5 years, charged to 100% virtually every night, and in 50K miles noticed zero degradation in range. This was the norm on the Fit EV forum with people doing 20K+ a year (multiple charges in a day) with no noticeable range decrease.

The actual useable capacity of the 17 kWh is closer to 13 kWh than 14. IIRC the cell voltage for the Clarity at 100% is ~ 4.1V which provides a significant top buffer (SOC is area under the curve and not a % of the fully charged to fully discharged voltage of the cells).

 

[2002]

A whole lot of fuss for very little (if any) benefit.
Honda does a good job of battery management, and with thermal conditioned batteries, there is no evidence that anything the user does in regards to daily charging influences battery longevity. The one exception to this is Tesla since they let you truly charge to 100% (4.2V per cell) without any significant top buffer.
We had a Honda Fit EV for nearly 5 years, charged to 100% virtually every night, and in 50K miles noticed zero degradation in range. This was the norm on the Fit EV forum with people doing 20K+ a year (multiple charges in a day) with no noticeable range decrease.

The actual useable capacity of the 17 kWh is closer to 13 kWh than 14. IIRC the cell voltage for the Clarity at 100% is ~ 4.1V which provides a significant top buffer (SOC is area under the curve and not a % of the fully charged to fully discharged voltage of the cells).

I thought Tesla charges by default to 90% but you can set it to 100% if you need to on a particular drive. As Elon Musk has pointed out, charging to 100% when you don't need to causes you to miss out on some regenerative braking, it may not be that much on a single drive, but if that's your daily habit that could add up to a noticeable missed opportunity to save energy.

As I stated it is absolutely no fuss for me as I am already scheduling my charging because of TOU and it's just as easy for me to schedule to 85% when I know that I won't need a full charge, as it is for me to charge to 100% when I know that I will. Appreciate your one data point that on a previous car you regularly charged to full with no issues after 50,000 miles, although the real question is what is the effect at 100,000 miles and beyond which is very common. But I'm sure many people have exceeded that number of miles in various types of EV's with no problem. But with batteries it's also about age not just miles, i.e. what is the effect when the battery is over ten years old. We have very few data points of owners driving Clarity beyond 100,000 miles because the car is still too new, and of course no data points beyond three years (at least for the PHEV). We do however have a few reports of noticeable loss of EV range compared to prior years in the same type of driving conditions, confirmed by battery capacity values of mid to upper 40's compared to the 55 Ah of a new battery. However I tend to think those early life degradation situations are more likely due to things like cars sitting on dealer lots for months without being charged and the HV battery getting fully depleted if it was already low to begin with.

To quote myself again:

"I have read it is better for the battery than sitting around for hours at 100%. But we really have no proof of this, and many people get home and immediately start charging to full, which means their car sits at home for hours at 100%. And that may be perfectly fine".

However until there is long term data on the Clarity I am not quite willing to say "It will absolutely be perfectly fine, no question about it". Although I know you aren't saying that either. Like many things about cars the question is not whether doing things a certain way guarantees early failure, but rather does it somewhat increase the odds of early failure, and if so by how much are the odds increased. Knowledge to that level of detail could help owners be able to make individual decisions about how much "fuss" they may or may not want be willing to incur in the operating of their vehicle. Car manufacturers don't really have an incentive to err on the side of caution in their recommendations as it would be awkward to recommend not using all of the advertised EV range. Ideally they have set the fixed reserves at a point that will maximum the battery for longest life. Sure they have an incentive to do so because of the California (and some other states) 10 yr/ 150,000 mile battery warranty, but let's say (completely hypothetically) that they determine that widening the reserves a little to increase range by a few miles might expose them to a small percentage of additional warranty failures during that time, but they conclude that for marketing reasons they really want the additional miles so they are willing to absorb that cost, which of course is not as much cost to them to replace a battery as the MSRP replacement numbers that we see. And I would think probably less than the $6,000 incentives that Honda has at times tossed out to dealers to help move cars.

I'm not into conspiracy theories, I'm just saying that we don't know for sure that staying below 100% might help at least somewhat to increase the odds of long term battery life, and if it's easy to charge to less than full when you don't need a full charge then it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Unfortunately unlike Tesla, unless you are already doing scheduled charging there isn't a way to set a maximum charge percentage in the Clarity. Which is too bad because as pointed out by Elon it also helps maximize regen, which in the case of the Clarity PHEV is even more of an issue when you are in a regen situation on a fully charged battery because of its unpleasant tendency to start up ICE in that situation and put it through an entire warmup cycle before shutting off again. So not only do you miss out on some regen but you waste gas to boot, just because you tried to do a little too much regen in the first mile of driving on a full charge.

 

[MPG+]

Happy in CT

I've had my 2019 Clarity Touring for 14 months now and very satisfied with the overall performance. For such a large and heavy (2 tons) car it gets great mileage and is very comfortable. My average MPG for a year is in the mid 40's, which is affected by the hilly terrain and climate here in CT. I drive it mostly in HV (hybrid mode), with occasional charging from free local charging stations and home charging. Due to Eversource's high electric rates, I allow myself a budget of $15/mo or about 70 kWh of home charging. As a relatively heavy, front wheel drive car it seems to do pretty well in the snow too. Good luck!

 

[DucRider]

I thought Tesla charges by default to 90% but you can set it to 100% if you need to on a particular drive. As Elon Musk has pointed out, charging to 100% when you don't need to causes you to miss out on some regenerative braking, it may not be that much on a single drive, but if that's your daily habit that could add up to a noticeable missed opportunity to save energy.

As I stated it is absolutely no fuss for me as I am already scheduling my charging because of TOU and it's just as easy for me to schedule to 85% when I know that I won't need a full charge, as it is for me to charge to 100% when I know that I will. Appreciate your one data point that on a previous car you regularly charged to full with no issues after 50,000 miles, although the real question is what is the effect at 100,000 miles and beyond which is very common. But I'm sure many people have exceeded that number of miles in various types of EV's with no problem. But with batteries it's also about age not just miles, i.e. what is the effect when the battery is over ten years old. We have very few data points of owners driving Clarity beyond 100,000 miles because the car is still too new, and of course no data points beyond three years (at least for the PHEV). We do however have a few reports of noticeable loss of EV range compared to prior years in the same type of driving conditions, confirmed by battery capacity values of mid to upper 40's compared to the 55 Ah of a new battery. However I tend to think those early life degradation situations are more likely due to things like cars sitting on dealer lots for months without being charged and the HV battery getting fully depleted if it was already low to begin with.

To quote myself again:

"I have read it is better for the battery than sitting around for hours at 100%. But we really have no proof of this, and many people get home and immediately start charging to full, which means their car sits at home for hours at 100%. And that may be perfectly fine".

However until there is long term data on the Clarity I am not quite willing to say "It will absolutely be perfectly fine, no question about it". Although I know you aren't saying that either. Like many things about cars the question is not whether doing things a certain way guarantees early failure, but rather does it somewhat increase the odds of early failure, and if so by how much are the odds increased. Knowledge to that level of detail could help owners be able to make individual decisions about how much "fuss" they may or may not want be willing to incur in the operating of their vehicle. Car manufacturers don't really have an incentive to err on the side of caution in their recommendations as it would be awkward to recommend not using all of the advertised EV range. Ideally they have set the fixed reserves at a point that will maximum the battery for longest life. Sure they have an incentive to do so because of the California (and some other states) 10 yr/ 150,000 mile battery warranty, but let's say (completely hypothetically) that they determine that widening the reserves a little to increase range by a few miles might expose them to a small percentage of additional warranty failures during that time, but they conclude that for marketing reasons they really want the additional miles so they are willing to absorb that cost, which of course is not as much cost to them to replace a battery as the MSRP replacement numbers that we see. And I would think probably less than the $6,000 incentives that Honda has at times tossed out to dealers to help move cars.

I'm not into conspiracy theories, I'm just saying that we don't know for sure that staying below 100% might help at least somewhat to increase the odds of long term battery life, and if it's easy to charge to less than full when you don't need a full charge then it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Unfortunately unlike Tesla, unless you are already doing scheduled charging there isn't a way to set a maximum charge percentage in the Clarity. Which is too bad because as pointed out by Elon it also helps maximize regen, which in the case of the Clarity PHEV is even more of an issue when you are in a regen situation on a fully charged battery because of its unpleasant tendency to start up ICE in that situation and put it through an entire warmup cycle before shutting off again. So not only do you miss out on some regen but you waste gas to boot, just because you tried to do a little too much regen in the first mile of driving on a full charge.

There are a bunch of thing we do know, first and foremost is that you can only use <80% of the rated battery capacity even when the car is charged to it's indicated 100%
We also know that a fair amount of what you read on the internet simply repeats what "everybody knows". The oft cited 80% rule is related back to Battery University articles (when any citation is given at all) where they test cell phone batteries with no thermal management and charge them to the full 4.2V and then discharge to the lower voltage cutoff (usually 2.5V). There is no EV out there that treats batteries in this way.
The Honda engineers were very specific in how the battery should be routinely charged. It is unlikely that what you are doing is actually harming the battery, but it is also unlikely that you know their systems and components better than they do.

Nissan LEAF owners for years have been doing nearly exactly what you are describing (the LEAF has no thermal management and is the poster child for degradation - particularly in hot climates). Users on forums that go thru the measures you do report about the same degree of degradation as those that charge it fully. The issue of fully charging is way down the list of factors most likely to cause degradation.

 

[2002]

There are a bunch of thing we do know, first and foremost is that you can only use <80% of the rated battery capacity even when the car is charged to it's indicated 100%
We also know that a fair amount of what you read on the internet simply repeats what "everybody knows". The oft cited 80% rule is related back to Battery University articles (when any citation is given at all) where they test cell phone batteries with no thermal management and charge them to the full 4.2V and then discharge to the lower voltage cutoff (usually 2.5V). There is no EV out there that treats batteries in this way.
The Honda engineers were very specific in how the battery should be routinely charged. It is unlikely that what you are doing is actually harming the battery, but it is also unlikely that you know their systems and components better than they do.

Nissan LEAF owners for years have been doing nearly exactly what you are describing (the LEAF has no thermal management and is the poster child for degradation - particularly in hot climates). Users on forums that go thru the measures you do report about the same degree of degradation as those that charge it fully. The issue of fully charging is way down the list of factors most likely to cause degradation.

I don't disagree with any of that. The regen thing is probably the biggest reason that many people don't charge to full as they just hate having ICE come on shortly after they leave the house and for some people there is no way to avoid it other than by not charging to 100%. In my case I have a small hill that I go down with a stop sign at the bottom. If I remember to take it slower than the speed limit going down the hill then I can keep ICE from coming on. But if I forget, or if there is someone behind me and I have to go a little faster, then it will usually come on. Doesn't really bother me, the amount of gas used in these situations is relatively small as it mostly just seems to idle while warming up and doesn't add much if any power. But that also adds to the wastefulness, and again for someone who has no way to avoid it and it happens every day I can understand why it would be annoying. I think Honda probably underestimated how much it bothers people that ICE comes on when they have plenty of charge. Then again like you say only the engineers know the real situation and they may have faced some decisions without easy solutions. But it just seems like there would have been more good will if they could have simply used the friction brakes in those situations, I think most people would accept a little more brake wear which I don't think would be that much anyway.

 

[fufu]

Thanks OberMd & 2002.
The inspection by Kelly Honda found no issues with the car. We are now the new owners of a 2018 Clarity Touring and are looking to many years of fuel-efficient comfortable, safe transportation!
It appears that the technician who performed the inspection work didn't find (or didn't release) the information about the battery pack capacity, and the only intervals reported were the last three, with interval between charges were at most 40 hours.

It looks like I had no better luck than most getting this detailed hybrid system info. I got a list of TSBs relevant to the car showing all were addressed, and the usual report of common systems like brakes, tires, etc.

Happy New Year everyone!

 

[2002]

Thanks OberMd & 2002.
The inspection by Kelly Honda found no issues with the car. We are now the new owners of a 2018 Clarity Touring and are looking to many years of fuel-efficient comfortable, safe transportation!
It appears that the technician who performed the inspection work didn't find (or didn't release) the information about the battery pack capacity, and the only intervals reported were the last three, with interval between charges were at most 40 hours.

It looks like I had no better luck than most getting this detailed hybrid system info. I got a list of TSBs relevant to the car showing all were addressed, and the usual report of common systems like brakes, tires, etc.

Happy New Year everyone!

Congratulations! Don't know if you got an owners manual with it. Most people just seem to get a printed Owners Guide which covers the basics, the full 587 page owners manual is available on the Honda website as a PDF file, you just have to create an account on their site and enter your vehicle information.

 

[fufu]

Hi 2002,
Yes, thankfully some time ago I found both the owner's manual and navigation manual online. It was a relief as my initial impression as I started researching and test-driving the Clarity was one of considerable shock to find so little information about the car in the glovebox. Did Honda publish an introductory video on Blu-Ray or DVD? I'm reviewing the videos on Honda's YouTube channel.