2018 Honda Clarity Forum

2018 Honda Clarity Forum (https://www.clarityforum.com/forum/)
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fuelscience 08-01-2019 10:31 AM

Clarity Availability
 
Here in the Southeast (Nashville), there are no new Clarities available for sale. I've looked at other dealerships in Tennessee, and I can't find one anywhere in the state. Are other areas of the US and Canada seeing similar shortages? I bought mine in May of this year from a dealership in Alabama where it had been sitting on the lot for 17 months. So I don't think that there's been huge demand. It seems like Honda just isn't shipping them to dealers.

4sallypat 08-01-2019 01:38 PM

This is correct, the non ZEV, non CARB, NON DLFC states are not receiving any 2019 Clarity's.
There were apparently a lot of 2018 leftovers in states like yours.
You may want to reach out to a dealer in another state that has them - if they can arrange shipping to your dealer, that would be the best to negotiate with that out of state dealer.

obermd 08-02-2019 09:22 AM

I have already asked my congressman to void the Federal Tax credits for any vehicle not available in all 50 states. The concept that only the 13 CARB states have access to electric cars is a political distortion of the market induced by California.

CarNewby 08-02-2019 12:23 PM

The ZEV states are trying to give an incentive for zero emission cars. Most authorities believe it is mandatory to decarbonize our transportation system as soon as possible if we have a hope to moderate the continued accelerating climate crisis.

Why don't you try to be helpful, by trying to convince your state to get onboard?

obermd 08-02-2019 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarNewby (Post 5041)
The ZEV states are trying to give an incentive for zero emission cars. Most authorities believe it is mandatory to decarbonize our transportation system as soon as possible if we have a hope to moderate the continued accelerating climate crisis.

Why don't you try to be helpful, by trying to convince your state to get onboard?

Colorado is onboard and has a $5,000 rebate, but why should Americans in states that don't get these cars have to subsidize the 13 states that do get the cars.

To be more specific, I asked my congressman for the following:

- The Federal Credit be extended to all manufacturers until a certain percentage of new car sales across the country meet the standards. GM and Tesla should NOT be penalized for leading the way.
- For a vehicle to qualify it must have an all electric range sufficient to cover 95% of all round trip commutes in the United States. The Clarity PHEV is close to this limit by the way.
- For a vehicle to qualify it must be available for sales and service in all 50 States.

This does not prevent each state from having additional credits and incentives. There is a real problem in that those few states who follow CARB rules are getting the bulk of the EVs, not only in sales but also in models. Currently the only EVs widely for sale across the country are Teslas, the Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf, and Toyota Prius Prime. There are leftover Volts and Clarity PHEVs, but not very many. It's no wonder that EV penetration in the US is so low. If we're going to use Federal policy to promote EVs it needs to be written in such a manner that car manufacturers will actually sell and service them everywhere.

CarNewby 08-02-2019 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obermd (Post 5043)
Colorado is onboard and has a $5,000 rebate, but why should Americans in states that don't get these cars have to subsidize the 13 states that do get the cars.

...
.

Aha! I agree with much of what you have to say, but I wonder if you would kindly spell out how residents of other states are subsidizing those states? It is my impression that it is the e-car manufacturers who are partially subsidizing the sale of these cars so they can balance out the much greater quantities of carbon emitting cars they wish to sell in those states.



And any US resident with a license and insurance are free to go to those states and purchase such a car at bargain prices. (N.B. Sales taxes are another matter -- you may definitely want to have the car shipped to your home state!)



And yes, I agree, the logic of capping federal rebates to the first 200000 units sold seems not to be working. It has not incentivized much new innovation from those manufacturers who are very slowly entering the market with similar vehicles. The current producers seem to be doing much of the innovation...

obermd 08-02-2019 02:45 PM

The Federal Tax Credit is actually coming out of the Federal Highway funds, so there is less money there to tap into when it comes to road work (of all types). Thus residents of the 13 CARB states are having tax dollars shifted without regard to the overall highway infrastructure.

Shipping a car in from another State has more than just tax implications. There is also the question of service - dealerships in states where a car isn't sold aren't likely to be able to properly fix one that comes in simply because they haven't had the necessary training. Thus my proposal includes "and service."

Also, did you notice I didn't specify a battery size. If a company can build an EV that gets 50 miles/KWh then they only need a 1 KWh battery. My Volt has an 18.4 KWh battery for 53 miles. Based on published data, I think the Clarity PHEV has a 17.8 KWh battery for 47 miles. The policy needs to be aimed at road results, not battery size. Road results are heavily influenced by drive train design. (AAA estimates that the 95% point for round trip commutes is between 45 and 50 miles.)

Secondary proposal - drop all subsidies from Oil & Gas companies and watch gas prices shoot up. EVs will sell then as well. Either method will eliminate the tilt towards oil/diesel private transportation. The decline of sedan sales since 2012 has tracked almost exactly with the decline of the retail price of gasoline.

DucRider 08-02-2019 03:13 PM

The Clarity PHEV is available in all 50 States.

Whether dealers choose to order them or not is largely beyond the control of Honda. Oregon is a Section 177 State and has not had any inventory "on the ground" for most of 2019 - a case where demand exceeds supply.

Making it a requirement that there be unsold inventory of xx (units? percentage of all vehicles? at lest one unsold unit in every state every day of the calendar year?) is impractical.

If I were to recommend changes the the Federal Tax Credit, it would become fully available to all income levels and be applied at the time of sale. And PHEV's with less than a minimum AER would not qualify (25 miles?). At this point in time, giving a Tax Credit to a vehicle that cannot reach freeway speed solely on electric power and gets something in the ballpark of 10 miles of range on "electricity plus gas" (from the Monroney label) is questionable. Technology has advanced significantly from when the current rules were written.

But that being said, just getting enough members of Congress to agree on an extension is the major challenge. Getting that same majority to agree to an extension and changing the structure of the Credit would be virtually impossible. Too many would find objection to one or more of any proposed modifications.

obermd 08-02-2019 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DucRider (Post 5049)
The Clarity PHEV is available in all 50 States.

Whether dealers choose to order them or not is largely beyond the control of Honda. Oregon is a Section 177 State and has not had any inventory "on the ground" for most of 2019 - a case where demand exceeds supply.

Making it a requirement that there be unsold inventory of xx (units? percentage of all vehicles? at lest one unsold unit in every state every day of the calendar year?) is impractical.

If I were to recommend changes the the Federal Tax Credit, it would become fully available to all income levels and be applied at the time of sale. And PHEV's with less than a minimum AER would not qualify (25 miles?). At this point in time, giving a Tax Credit to a vehicle that cannot reach freeway speed solely on electric power and gets something in the ballpark of 10 miles of range on "electricity plus gas" (from the Monroney label) is questionable. Technology has advanced significantly from when the current rules were written.

But that being said, just getting enough members of Congress to agree on an extension is the major challenge. Getting that same majority to agree to an extension and changing the structure of the Credit would be virtually impossible. Too many would find objection to one or more of any proposed modifications.

Based on some of the other posts here, dealerships can't even order the 2019's unless they're in a CARB state. From your comment they can't order the Clarity PHEV even in CARB states right now, which points to a problem at Honda itself.

The requirement for sales & service in all 50 states can be handled via special orders as long as the dealership will service the vehicle as well. I've special ordered in the past for a hard to get vehicles.

I agree with you on speed - it needs to be a NHTSA/FVMSS general highway use approved motor vehicle. If you want to give partial credits for shorter AER then that's fine, but I'd put the limit at the 50% point for roundtrip commutes.

I like the idea of having the dealership apply for the reimbursement, allowing them to reduce the vehicle price at point of sale. Then take this item off the Form 1040 entirely.

There are two huge public policy goals to be accomplished by electrifying ground transportation. The first is the removal of oil from our national security requirements (the US is actually a net exporter of oil now). Roughly 80 to 90% of all oil usage is in the form of gasoline and diesel fuel. The second is to clean up urban air, which will reduce the long term health care costs related to pulmonary diseases. Just having every one commute on electricity will go a long ways towards this goal.

DucRider 08-02-2019 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obermd (Post 5051)
The requirement for sales & service in all 50 states can be handled via special orders as long as the dealership will service the vehicle as well.

Just as a note, this requirement would disqualify Tesla vehicles.
Ignoring the "dealership" terminology:
Some states do not have a service center, some states have re-purposed laws protecting franchisees to specifically exclude manufacturers from selling direct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by obermd (Post 5051)
I agree with you on speed - it needs to be a NHTSA/FVMSS general highway use approved motor vehicle. If you want to give partial credits for shorter AER then that's fine, but I'd put the limit at the 50% point for roundtrip commutes.

That is already a requirement. The issue I have is some PHEV's cannot reach freeway speed without the use of the ICE. My opinion is that a vehicle that must use the ICE under normal driving condition when the battery would otherwise have sufficient charge to power the vehicle should not qualify for the Tax Credit.
It starts to get a little tricky when you look at PHEV's from Hyundai/Kia. They have decent range (~30 miles), and can drive at 65 mph without the use of the ICE. But the big caveat - if you want cabin heat the only source is the ICE (which must be run and run long enough to be brought up to temp). This makes a year-round daily commute on electricity alone impractical for much of the population.


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