Clarity Availability - Page 3 - 2018 Honda Clarity Forum
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post #21 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by DucRider View Post
Killing the Clarity would leave them no choice but to buy credits from someone like Tesla. They've done that in the past to the tune of millions of dollars and likely very much want to avoid that scenario. This is one of big attractions of producing the Clarity FCX -it garners 4 credits and those credits "travel" at full value for all Section 177 states (they count towards the requirements even if the vehicle is sold elswhere). Other ZEV credits no longer "travel" and sales numbers/percentages must be met in the states outside of California.
Killing the Clarity PHEV won't impact Honda. It only receives 1.5 ZEV credits. The Clarity BEV and FCEV both receive the full 4 credits, even though fuel cell vehicles are a niche market in California, Oregon, and Japan. Fuel cell infrastructure simply does NOT exist elsewhere in the world.

2018 Honda Clarity Touring PHEV - Forest Green w/Tan interior (wife's car)
2017 Volt LT - Heather Gray; black bow ties, Charcoal VoltShelf
2012 Cruze ECO MT (hail totaled 5/8/17 103,600 miles @42.5 MPG)
2010 Mit Lancer GT MT (traded for ECO @31K miles)
2002 Pont Montana AWD - title to son at college graduation
1990 Pont Transport (traded for Montana @240K miles)
1986 Fiero GT MT (traded for Transport - needed more seats)
1985 Fiero 2M4 MT (traded for Fiero GT @8K miles)
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post #22 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by DucRider View Post
It means if they are production constrained (battery supply?), more of the cars need to go to Section 177 States or they have to buy credits on the open market (or pay the $5K per credit penalty).

Killing the Clarity would leave them no choice but to buy credits from someone like Tesla. They've done that in the past to the tune of millions of dollars and likely very much want to avoid that scenario. This is one of big attractions of producing the Clarity FCX -it garners 4 credits and those credits "travel" at full value for all Section 177 states (they count towards the requirements even if the vehicle is sold elswhere). Other ZEV credits no longer "travel" and sales numbers/percentages must be met in the states outside of California.

As you can see from the chart, moving forward they have to come up with something they can use the get "pure" ZEV credits as the TZEV Clarity (PHEV) can only be used for a percentage of the total required credits. Unlikely the Clarity FCX will sell in sufficient numbers to satisfy all the ZEV requirements going forward (and the Clarity Electric only earns credits in the sate in which it is sold - CA or OR)

All this will have a very definite impact on inventory availability in states that have not elected to adopt the Section 177 standards. Honda (and all manufacturers) need to give priority to Section 177 States when supply is limited or face monetary consequences.
Question about tariffs:
Does the current administration import tariffs affect the likeliness of cars made outside the US (Clarity made in Saitama Japan) become a difficult market in the US ???
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post #23 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 11:41 AM
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I understand the issues. My point is pretty simple and more big picture on the nationwide level

Carb credits = political motivation
Zev states = political motivation

Why aren't more states ZEV? Political motivation or lack of.

If the American politician gave a **** about anything other than greed and self interest...things would be a whole lot different.

If these car companies gave a **** about promoting PHEV/BEV these vehicles would be available country wide...Tesla being the exception. People apparently loved the Volt...why cancel? Lost the federal tax credit for buyers, thus incentive, is my guess. But of course blame low sedan sales, low profit margin yadadayadadayadada.

The ICE technology is much more profitable at this stage and that is really the bottom line. PHEV/BEV should be a staple inventory by this time nationwide...but ICE continues to dominate with limited availability of PHEV/BEV models. Tesla the exception.

As for Honda...the lack of interest/knowledge/commitment in the Clarity by their dealership network speaks volumes...it is readily apparent the whole strategy was to discourage the sale of this car in non-zev states. Pathetic really.

I read @obermd posts as saying Why shouldn't the rest of the country have access to these vehicles? As it stands now...most consumers from North Dakota to North Carolina to Florida to Iowa are forced to buy the crap on dealers lots (ie) ICE vehicles. If PHEV version of the 2019 Clarity were available nationwide, even on a limited basis, they would sell if promoted properly and given some time.

When I bought the 2018 Clarity the research I did showed basically within 150 miles...four dealers had up to 5 cars on the lot. So less than 20 vehicles. No wonder the sales figures were dismal. They all sold though...hmmm.

Where I live...I am 100% confident both the PHEV Toyota or Subaru would sell well. But this is not a viable option since they are going for the carb credits while eschewing the rest of the country.

I digress...yes some of us understand the issue @DucRider so diligently laid out...but disagree with those who say its acceptable for the car manufactures to dictate who gets what car when.

If you build it they will come..if you don't...how can sales level become acceptable and/or become the norm?

Last edited by Clarity_newbie; 08-04-2019 at 11:33 PM.
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post #24 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4sallypat View Post
Question about tariffs:
Does the current administration import tariffs affect the likeliness of cars made outside the US (Clarity made in Saitama Japan) become a difficult market in the US ???
Possibly. I don't think Japan has been a Trump target however. Japan auto manufacturers have been a target in the past, which is how we got Lexus.

2018 Honda Clarity Touring PHEV - Forest Green w/Tan interior (wife's car)
2017 Volt LT - Heather Gray; black bow ties, Charcoal VoltShelf
2012 Cruze ECO MT (hail totaled 5/8/17 103,600 miles @42.5 MPG)
2010 Mit Lancer GT MT (traded for ECO @31K miles)
2002 Pont Montana AWD - title to son at college graduation
1990 Pont Transport (traded for Montana @240K miles)
1986 Fiero GT MT (traded for Transport - needed more seats)
1985 Fiero 2M4 MT (traded for Fiero GT @8K miles)
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post #25 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by obermd View Post
Killing the Clarity PHEV won't impact Honda. It only receives 1.5 ZEV credits. The Clarity BEV and FCEV both receive the full 4 credits, even though fuel cell vehicles are a niche market in California, Oregon, and Japan. Fuel cell infrastructure simply does NOT exist elsewhere in the world.
Clarity PHEV earns 1.2 TZEV credits (the cap is 1.3 for a PHEV), Clarity Electric 1.9 ZEV credits (the cap is 4). The Clarity FC does earn the max 4 ZEV credits. Credit value is dependent on range.

TZEV credit = .01 x EAER (UDDS test cycle) + .3 with a cap of 1.1 credits. There is a .2 credit bonus if the vehicle tests >10 miles on the US06 test cycle for a total cap of 1.3

ZEV credit = .01 x UDDS + .5

Fuel cell ZEV credit "travel" and are considered earned in all Section 177 States, where other credits must be earned by sales in each State.

Honda FCEV sales are far below the amount needed to cover their credit requirements (they are available only in the few parts of CA - nothing in OR and foreign sales do not earn credits)

Killing the Clarity would mean writing multi-million dollar checks to Tesla - that would definitely "have an impact".
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2018 Clarity Electric (Vortex Blue)
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post #26 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 05:23 PM
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I was originally looking at getting the FCV Clarity because H2 refilling stations were all over the LA/SB/OC county....

None of the dealers had them instock and you had to put down a deposit to wait for one...
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post #27 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 08:54 PM
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Based on what those of you in California and Oregon are posting I have to wonder if the Clarity is a mass production vehicle or a limited run demonstration vehicle. PHEVs are possibly the most complex power plant individuals will ever see. Hydrogen isn't too far behind. BEVs are drop dead simple but the limited range of the Clarity BEV is a real issue, especially at the price.

2018 Honda Clarity Touring PHEV - Forest Green w/Tan interior (wife's car)
2017 Volt LT - Heather Gray; black bow ties, Charcoal VoltShelf
2012 Cruze ECO MT (hail totaled 5/8/17 103,600 miles @42.5 MPG)
2010 Mit Lancer GT MT (traded for ECO @31K miles)
2002 Pont Montana AWD - title to son at college graduation
1990 Pont Transport (traded for Montana @240K miles)
1986 Fiero GT MT (traded for Transport - needed more seats)
1985 Fiero 2M4 MT (traded for Fiero GT @8K miles)
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post #28 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-08-2019, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by obermd View Post
Based on what those of you in California and Oregon are posting I have to wonder if the Clarity is a mass production vehicle or a limited run demonstration vehicle. PHEVs are possibly the most complex power plant individuals will ever see. Hydrogen isn't too far behind. BEVs are drop dead simple but the limited range of the Clarity BEV is a real issue, especially at the price.
I don't see why a PHEV would be considered that much more complicated than a regular hybrid, they function almost identically. A regular hybrid can operate in EV mode that is virtually identical to EV mode in a PHEV, the only difference is the level of power before HV mode kicks in, as well as the range that is possible in EV mode. A PHEV just has a larger battery and a larger electric motor, and of course a battery charger. In the case of Honda for example Clarity uses essentially the same i-MMD hybrid system as the Insight and Accord, actually the previous version of i-MMD which has been around for quite awhile.
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post #29 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-08-2019, 04:06 PM
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I don't see why a PHEV would be considered that much more complicated than a regular hybrid, they function almost identically. A regular hybrid can operate in EV mode that is virtually identical to EV mode in a PHEV, the only difference is the level of power before HV mode kicks in, as well as the range that is possible in EV mode. A PHEV just has a larger battery and a larger electric motor, and of course a battery charger. In the case of Honda for example Clarity uses essentially the same i-MMD hybrid system as the Insight and Accord, actually the previous version of i-MMD which has been around for quite awhile.
First, the charger is a big deal (I know the charging module in my Volt is a $1,200 list price component). Also you should provide both electric heat for electric operation and a provision for using the ICE coolant for heat when in hybrid mode and to extend range in extreme cold operation. The larger battery really requires active temperature management (think, liquid cooled) which is an additional cooling system with its own radiator. Then there are the options of default electric, charge sustainment when the battery is depleted or in HV mode and the option of building a charge level buffer for long grade operation (HV charge or Mountain Mode in Volt-speak).
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post #30 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-08-2019, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 2002 View Post
I don't see why a PHEV would be considered that much more complicated than a regular hybrid, they function almost identically. A regular hybrid can operate in EV mode that is virtually identical to EV mode in a PHEV, the only difference is the level of power before HV mode kicks in, as well as the range that is possible in EV mode. A PHEV just has a larger battery and a larger electric motor, and of course a battery charger. In the case of Honda for example Clarity uses essentially the same i-MMD hybrid system as the Insight and Accord, actually the previous version of i-MMD which has been around for quite awhile.
In addition to what css28 pointed out, there's another big difference. PHEVs are designed to use the electric motors first and gas second at all speeds. Traditional hybrids switch from electric to gas around 30 MPH (varies by model and manufacturer). This leads to an engine control system that has to frequently starts and stops the ICE fuel injectors while allowing the ICE to continue spinning once the batteries are "exhausted". This is thanks to regenerative braking when the car is descending a hill or slowing down. Traditional hybrids simply don't do this.

2018 Honda Clarity Touring PHEV - Forest Green w/Tan interior (wife's car)
2017 Volt LT - Heather Gray; black bow ties, Charcoal VoltShelf
2012 Cruze ECO MT (hail totaled 5/8/17 103,600 miles @42.5 MPG)
2010 Mit Lancer GT MT (traded for ECO @31K miles)
2002 Pont Montana AWD - title to son at college graduation
1990 Pont Transport (traded for Montana @240K miles)
1986 Fiero GT MT (traded for Transport - needed more seats)
1985 Fiero 2M4 MT (traded for Fiero GT @8K miles)
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